Live Your Values

Caring vs. Giving a Sh*t with Joel Lindenfeld

May 27, 2020 Episode 2
Caring vs. Giving a Sh*t with Joel Lindenfeld
Live Your Values
More Info
Live Your Values
Caring vs. Giving a Sh*t with Joel Lindenfeld
May 27, 2020 Episode 2

What does it mean to care, and is it the same as truly giving a sh*t? Have you had friendships that have drifted? What about ones that have strengthened with age?

In this episode, Bagel and Joel get deep and explore the benefits of being vulnerable, opening up to therapy, why it's important to have tough conversations, and what it looks like when you care vs. giving a sh*t about the important people in your life.

About Our Guest:
Joel is from Caracas, Venezuela, and has been living in the US since 2001, he and his wife live in Pasadena, California with their 6 year old Pitbull and have been in IVF treatments for 3 years. An avid traveler whose life goal is to visit every country in the world, and ironically is most proud of ALMOST reaching the summit of Mt. Kilimanjaro.
You can find Joel's podcast, You, Me, and the Embryologist Make 3 here ( or wherever you listen to podcasts, and connect with them on Instagram @Vali_YME3
You can also connect with Joel on Instragram @jo.el_not_joel

Mentioned in this Episode:

Connect with us @lyvshow on social to continue the values conversation!

Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

What does it mean to care, and is it the same as truly giving a sh*t? Have you had friendships that have drifted? What about ones that have strengthened with age?

In this episode, Bagel and Joel get deep and explore the benefits of being vulnerable, opening up to therapy, why it's important to have tough conversations, and what it looks like when you care vs. giving a sh*t about the important people in your life.

About Our Guest:
Joel is from Caracas, Venezuela, and has been living in the US since 2001, he and his wife live in Pasadena, California with their 6 year old Pitbull and have been in IVF treatments for 3 years. An avid traveler whose life goal is to visit every country in the world, and ironically is most proud of ALMOST reaching the summit of Mt. Kilimanjaro.
You can find Joel's podcast, You, Me, and the Embryologist Make 3 here ( or wherever you listen to podcasts, and connect with them on Instagram @Vali_YME3
You can also connect with Joel on Instragram @jo.el_not_joel

Mentioned in this Episode:

Connect with us @lyvshow on social to continue the values conversation!

002 Interview

Hey, it's Bagel here. Thanks for checking out this episode of the Live Your Values podcast. I had a blast talking to one of my best friends, Joel Lindenfeld in this episode about caring versus giving a shit about the important people in your life. The tone of this episode may feel a little more relaxed at times, and I think that reflects the relationship and bond that I have with Joel over the 20 years of friendship that we share.

[00:00:23] Just think about what it might sound like if you interviewed your best friend for a podcast episode. Anyway, Joel is an unbelievably loving and generous person, and I'm pumped that I get to share this conversation with you.

[00:00:33] Be sure to check out the show notes for ways that you can connect with us and our guests on the live your values podcast.    Enjoy this episode with Joel Lindenfeld.   Welcome to the Live Your Values Podcast. I'm your host Mike Bagel, and today I am beyond excited to welcome our guest, one of my best friends and a true global citizen, Joel Lindenfeld. Joel is from Caracas, Venezuela, and has been living in the U S since 2001.

[00:01:10] He and his wife live in Pasadena, California with their six year old pit Catire, and have been in IVF treatments for three years. An avid traveler who's life goal is to visit every country in the world and ironically is most proud of almost reaching the summit of Mount Kilimanjaro. Joel is also the cohost, along with his wife, Val, of the podcast, You, Me and the Embryologist Make 3. An honest, educational and sometimes humorous depiction of their IVF journey, which is available on Apple music, Spotify, anything else they can listen to it on all the, all the available ones that are out there?

[00:01:48] Joel: All of them. All of them, yeah.

[00:01:50]Bagel: I would definitely check it out.

[00:01:51] It's been really. Like I said, educational. It's been really fun. Obviously you and I are friends and so there's meaning for me, but I think it's really, really great listen for anyone who might know anyone that may be going through IVF treatments or, honestly, just like good educational stuff.

[00:02:06] And, and Joel is funny, but his wife Val is, is definitely the fun entertainment of, of the show, and it's a lot of fun. So,

[00:02:15] Joel: Cute. She's cute. That's why it's like her, I dunno her way of talking. It's, I don't know. I just love her accent, I guess.

[00:02:26] Bagel: It's fun, but both of you have your own fun ways to inject into the conversation. But, she's, she's very abrupt and direct, and I, I liked that. I liked that humor. So, Joel, welcome. I'm, 

[00:02:37] Joel: Thank you. Thank you for having me here.

[00:02:39]Bagel: Why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about who you are and   what's something meaningful or important that you are working on right now? 

[00:02:48] Joel: Yeah.  All right. So yeah, that's little gist of who I am. I was born in Venezuela. I've lived in many different places. Miami, New Jersey, which is where I met you,  LA, Barcelona, then back to Miami, back to LA, like all over the place, which is kind of what I've always enjoyed.  I am a huge baseball fan.

[00:03:13]I'm a, Like I said, I love traveling. I studied filmmaking. I'm still really like a struggling filmmaker, actor, producer, and now standup comedian. I guess.  

[00:03:27] Bagel: Man of many 

[00:03:29] Joel: I'm still trying. I'm still trying to find my way in life, I guess. and what do I mean? I, I would say the most meaningful thing that I'm working on now and what takes over my entire brain capacity now is trying to get my wife pregnant with the help of doctors. It really does take over your whole thinking and yeah, it's crazy. Besides that, I mean, just trying to get over this world's situation while I am not at home, which is weird.

[00:04:05] She keeps telling me  the garage would be done by now if we were like, yes, it would. Like, I actually like, I can say that like, yeah, sure.

[00:04:16] Bagel: In theory, we'd get a lot of stuff done if we were at home, right?

[00:04:20] Joel: One of my favorite things that I've read online,  it's like, "Ladies.  If your husband tells you that he's going to do something, he's going to do it. There's no need to remind him every six months."

[00:04:32] Bagel: That is great. 

[00:04:34] Joel: Yeah, we're happy,  Catire has a yard to run in. 

[00:04:39] Bagel: That's great. And I, I've been lucky enough to catch you  at certain periods when you're, when you've either been traveling across the country, like the time we met up in Atlanta for a baseball game. And,  when I did my trip a few years back, I got to stay with you down in Florida.

[00:04:53]So Joel, Joel and I are. Are both, avid travelers, although Joel  on a much more global scale than I am. I've done a little bit more of the U S but it's always, it's always been fun to have you as a roadshow partner, and I'll never forget, I think for me. Well that too. I was just telling my girlfriend about that.

[00:05:12] Our very first road trip, very fitting Boston, 2003 - 16 or 17 years old, and taking a trip from Jersey up to Boston in Joel's car. 

[00:05:23] Joel: Probably shouldn't have happened. Now that we look back at us, like who? Why did they let us do this? Why were we allowed?

[00:05:33] Bagel: "They" as in our parents? Or society?

[00:05:35] Joel: Well, both, but our parents, like we were, Lenny was, what, 15 

[00:05:41] I think he was 16.

[00:05:44] And buying us all of our booze. Right. I don't know if I would, if I would let my kids do that, if and when  they get to that age.

[00:05:53] I hope. I hope so, man.

[00:05:55] Bagel: Yeah, I know. So  this show is about living your values obviously, and, you and I have had some really great, insightful, deep conversations throughout our life about what's important to us. What are some of the things that you feel like are most important in terms of your life's values right now? Maybe your top few.

[00:06:17]Joel: I dunno, man. Just I think, I think I'm at the point where it's all about openness and just being sincere with yourself with those around you as much as possible .

[00:06:34] I feel like, for a long time I wasn't being as, as honest and as truthful  with a lot of things. And that's been a turnaround for me recently,

[00:06:50]Bagel: Yeah. Let's dig into that a little bit, 

[00:06:52]Joel: For sure. For sure.

[00:06:54]Bagel: So you mentioned being open and sincere and, maybe that you've realized  that was lacking in your life and you're trying to do it more. Was there some, was there a catalyst or is there something that, that kind of changed your perspective on why that became more important?

[00:07:10]Joel: No, I mean,  I would say that I was like that for a long time, and then maybe I put a stop to it. Like there was a, there was something, maybe there was a catalyst for me to go into hiding a little more and be less vulnerable.

[00:07:30]But recently, I mean, for sure, you know, Val and I, we've been very,  closed off with this whole IVF thing until recently. And maybe just the fact that I needed to be closed off with that made me more closed off with other things. 

[00:07:50] All right. Cause I, cause I just, I didn't feel open to just be, to just say anything and do anything because there was always the possibility of, "Oh, I'm going to have to lie about why we don't have kids yet. Or I'm going to have to lie because we had made a, we have made an agreement that we weren't, we weren't going to say it."

[00:08:14] So recently we opened up about that, it's a conversation that Val and I had, and the way that we opened up was with the podcast. Like most of our, most of our families didn't know. So it was kind of...

[00:08:26] Bagel: It's pretty bold.

[00:08:28] Joel: Yeah. Is it though? Or is it the way, the way that I see it as like, you can't see my face, you can't interject. Like you can't ask me anything along the way.

[00:08:41] So I don't know. I thought it would be easier to do it that way. I mean, we did get the calls and everything from most people. . It felt more like I was being more cautious and more protective by doing it in front of a microphone than in front of people or live.

[00:09:02] Bagel: Yeah. That makes sense. And that's what I was just going to ask. Cause like obviously you mentioned you and Val had a very intentional conversation about how you wanted to sort of come out with it and it sounds like that those were the reasons.

[00:09:15] Joel: There's a, there's a stigma. There's a big stigma to infertility in general and IVF, and  she's the one  that wanted to be more, I think even, even though the more research I do like it's men get the more... like  emasculating. It's like they're looked down upon like less, but women, society sees women's jobs as birth babies, you know, like a little less so nowadays. But like, that is why women are on this earth. So, you know,

[00:09:56] Bagel: That's how society

[00:09:57] Joel: Society sees it so. The fact that that we hadn't been able to, she hadn't been able to, it was painful. It was painful. And the way that people talk about it, it's painful. So I understand her not wanting to be open about it.

[00:10:16] And when we decided to, she's always been very like hesitant. But she saw like we, we do get a lot of support and  that's also a good thing. But yeah, there's a lot of insensitive stuff that is still said  even after knowing.

[00:10:35] Bagel: Yeah. I can only imagine, you know, I think there's certainly a sense of courage that you and her, and you together have to have to be able to put this out in the open and to be vulnerable to share something that you guys have been struggling with. 

[00:10:51] Were there times where you were more reluctant to share, to be open in recent years that caused some sort of negative consequence? And on the other side of that, were there times where you were open and you were vulnerable that you feel like there was a constant negative consequence or either one?

[00:11:09] Joel: I don't, I don't know. I don't know. I honestly, I haven't thought about it that way. You know, I'm a very introspective person and I, so I, the way that I see it, it's like, what is it doing to my relationships and what is it doing to the way that I communicate with people? 

[00:11:28]I don't think it has done anything negative necessarily in my life, but it does block me from having real connections with people. And I do like, whenever somebody asks me... 

[00:11:41] Let's go, let's dive right into it. So you can't see me now. but I used to weigh about 120 pounds more than I do right now.

[00:11:52] And for the longest time, "Hey, what did he do? Oh, thanks to my wife. You know, she stopped feeding me, blah, blah." And people would laugh. And that was it. Like they don't go into it, they just laugh and cool. But the truth is, I had bariatric surgery. I have realized in the past, like recently that with me saying that I've had bariatric surgery, I can help a lot more people than with me bullshitting. Sorry. Can I curse?

[00:12:26]Bagel: Yeah, yeah.

[00:12:27] Joel: Okay. With me bullshitting. Because what, what is it? Am I just feeding my ego when I do that? Like, am I trying not to like, yeah, is it a little bit embarrassing? Absolutely. Absolutely. Like why am I not sharing this with people? If it can help people, you know, if somebody is thinking about it. And I've done this and sometimes I feel bad about it, that I bring it up to somebody who I can see that is struggling with obesity and they're sad about it. Like, hey, you know I used to weigh almost 300 pounds and I did this. And it feels weird because  you don't know what their situation is. You don't know. But some people, most people do really appreciate it and they ask you real questions and  I don't know if they went on and had the surgery or did whatever. But just knowing that there's options and knowing that there are success stories that it's not as scary as you might think without talking to somebody. It showed me that being open and sincere can have a positive impact on other people and yourself.

[00:13:47]Bagel: That's a, that's a really cool story. And, and revelation. I think two things that made me think of is, one, it sounds like there was, there was like a self preservation thing happening for awhile. Which we all do in different ways about different things that we're maybe insecure about or, or you know, don't really know how to share with others or maybe aren't ready to share with others.  And it sounds like there was a little bit of that going on. Don't want to project, but that's kind of what I hear a bit. 

[00:14:13] Joel: Absolutely 

[00:14:14] Bagel: And yeah. And then the fact that, you know, once you did decide to start sharing it, you realize like, okay, if I can get over this thing that I'm protecting myself with  maybe this is used to help others. And being open and honest, there's like a ripple effect that could occur.

[00:14:29]Just you being more open and honest and vulnerable about it. It's not only is it sharing helpful information for others who are wanting to know that information, but it's like that might cause someone else to be more open about it. And who knows? That could start a little bit of a stigma change. So that's pretty cool.

[00:14:48] Can we talk about the movie "Pay It Forward" even though Kevin Spacey's in it?

[00:14:54] You can talk about whatever you want on this podcast, and I will either include it or cut it.

[00:15:02]Joel: But paying it forward, man, I think it's, you know, the ripple effect that you were saying. I think it's a, yeah, it's important.

[00:15:11] Bagel: Yeah.

[00:15:13]Joel: I just thought about what one of the catalysts might have been with this like change of, so you know, my wife, she's studying for her PsyD. She's a therapist. She's  in the mental health field. And I have been in therapy my entire life and  most people hadn't known it. And I think that's for like, I think that's, that's like what society was. And like a lot more people are way more open about therapy nowadays.

[00:15:42] But I think seeing Val's, openness about, couples therapy.  How she didn't understand, at first, why I didn't want to be so open about the fact that we were going to a couples therapy. And I was like, why? Why do you want other people? She's like, it's because not everybody that's in couples therapy is having problems.

[00:16:07]It's about talking, it's about having a mediator. It's about working through things. And I've become a very big believer of therapy as a conversation more than a let's fix you and like fix the couple . So I think, I think seeing my wife's openness about couples therapy has made me a little more open.

[00:16:32] Bagel: Yeah, that's really cool. And, and for her, was it more of a cultural thing that she was comfortable with it or just on a personal level? She just didn't have anything to hide or, or both.

[00:16:43] Joel: Yeah. No, I think it's on a personal level with that,  it's her field. So, she said, just as like, this is normal, like not all my clients are crazy. You know, like we'll just come in because they need a little help. They need tools to get through things. And you know,  it shouldn't be that, that taboo. They shouldn't have that stigma.

[00:17:08] Bagel: Yeah. I was just thinking  that de-stigmatized it probably for you. And I know that that's a big theme of your podcast and what you talk about is de-stigmatizing things.

[00:17:17]Let's, let's switch gears. Is there, are there any things out there that other people seem to care about in terms of values that, that clearly don't matter to you at all?

[00:17:26]You're just like. I don't understand why that's so important to someone, or maybe even something funny that you see in the public eye ?

[00:17:32] Joel: Oh man, I can get into a lot of trouble here. 

[00:17:36] Bagel: Say what you will. This is, this is an authentic podcast, so share authentically.

[00:17:42] Joel: Yeah, man.  So the more I go through life, the more I realize that there's a lot of things that are thicker than blood. And I disagree wholeheartedly with the statement, your family's who's going to be there at the end no matter what. I agree that yes, that like your immediate family. Absolutely. But that's to me in my, in like what I see, not only with myself, but what I see with. A lot of different people.  it's, it ends with immediate family or with good small circles outside of it. and that it's not that it's something that not everybody okay puts effort into and wa and it's, it's, it's not as a, a given as.

[00:18:12] As people claim, as people say, like, no family, blah, blah. And then I'm from Venezuela, like we're Latinos and it's supposed to be the number one thing. And it is, I mean, I'm very close to some of my family. But I've realized that when you're going through shade, when you're down, family can be as distant and as shitty as always and as anybody.

[00:18:36] Is that too real?

[00:18:39] Bagel: I mean. Not at all.


[00:18:40]  After listening to this again, I thought about this more. I didn't ask Joel this directly, but I wondered if others had this experience too. Where sometimes when you can see that someone is down or depressed, it's hard to know how or what to say, and so sometimes we just detach. I'd be inauthentic if I didn't say that I struggle with this.

[00:19:03] The reality is usually the person in need doesn't need you to say the exact right thing. Just that they need to feel validated. Can you think of a time when you detached instead of showing someone that you care? What could you do differently the next time?   I mean, I think, I think that's a really interesting point. I'm curious to know a little more. Everybody's family systems are different. Obviously. I think certain people feel a little bit closer to their immediate family.

[00:19:29] Some people feel like they have a really strong connection with extended family. But then there's this whole idea of, you know, the people you choose to, you know, surround yourself with like your close friends. Some people, like I know our crew, sometimes we consider ourselves to be that family. So help us distinguish what you're talking about there. Like are you strictly talking bloodlines or are there people who are more supportive to you right now and what you're going through or like tell me more.

[00:20:00] Joel: Oh, absolutely. And not just right now, like with everything. Like I feel that I have made families everywhere I go. Like I. Like there's people that I've met twice in my life that I speak to more than people who are in my bloodline. And they care more about things and they're more active in our lives.

[00:20:33] And it, it goes, vice versa. Like it's goes both ways, 100%. But I think there's something to be said for that.  I care, look at the segue, I care more... I care more about people that show a real interest, that showed they care. Not just because you have to care because you are my Aunt's Nephew's Brother. You know what I mean? Like, there's more to be said for a formed relationship, and I think that's most important.

[00:21:20] Bagel: Yeah, that is a fantastic segue to the topic that I asked you to be here to talk about today. Which is what I'm dubbing caring versus giving shit. And so, absolutely, you can curse. 

[00:21:33] Joel: Oh yeah. I didn't think

[00:21:37] Bagel: I thought that was my clue to you when I sent you the email. But it's always good to clarify. So no, no offense taken there. So, and I'll just, I'll just share for our listeners. Like, you know, this is me trying to open up a little bit more, early on in this podcast production. That, you know, Joel and I are our best friends, so we've known each other how long now? I don't know, 13 years, something like that.

[00:21:59] Joel: Since 2001.

[00:22:01] Bagel: Oh, way more than that. I'm not even thinking straight. Yeah. Almost 20 years. Back when I, when I met him, cause he was a Blink 182 fan.

[00:22:09] Joel: And you thought that I walked weird.

[00:22:11] Bagel: Yeah. You had a signature walk down the hallway. Yeah. Which I know you, you still hate me for to this day.

[00:22:19] But it was memorable. See that's, that's what matters.

[00:22:23] Joel: Yeah, yeah. And, and I just want to clarify something real quick. You said that I was a Blink 182 fan. I am most definitely and very proudly a Blink 182 fan

[00:22:37] Bagel: Well, that's good to know. I don't know how many of them there are still left. No, I'm just kidding. I feel it. Yeah , so all of that is to say, Joel and I have have formed a pretty tight bond over the years. And so when I was thinking about what would be a nice topic for Joel to, to come on and speak about, I know, I see Joel is very open person in our friendship.

[00:22:59] And so, In addition to that, I think one of the traits that I admire about you a lot and see in you a lot is how much you do care about the people in your life. And, it's a great segue of what you were just talking about. And I kinda just want to open it up to the conversation of what does it mean to care versus really giving a shit about the person. And are those the same? Is there a Venn diagram there? Do they overlap or are those two concepts different?

[00:23:28]Joel: This is where I'm having an issue with the question itself. Is, english being my second language, and giving a shit is an idiom. And the way that I, the way that is mostly used is on the negative, right? It's like, I don't give a shit, so, so where I'm trying to see like which one is the more powerful one. Is caring the more powerful one, or because it's used as, "I don't give a shit" means that when it's the opposite that's the powerful one. You know, like I do give a shit like that. Am I right on that? Am I, is that how you were seeing it?

[00:24:13] Bagel: I, maybe I'm, up to interpretation, but I love how you interpreted that.  It definitely is an idiom and sometimes I forget that English is your second language, even though I know you're a Spanish speaker, it's just you, you obviously your and my relationship is to speaking it was together even though I should know more Spanish, but that's neither here nor there for right now.

[00:24:37] It's really everybody's fault, not mine. Right? I can't take any accountability for it. One day. So I guess, and I don't know the answer, really. I don't know if one of these is better than the other, or if one of these was meant to be carried with more weight or not.

[00:24:54] I think, we show people that we care in different ways. I think that that looks different. In my opinion on an individual basis, like the way I care about you and for you is a lot different than how I care for some of our other friends or someone I know from college or my partner and my family. At least, I show that care in a lot of different ways. I also show love in a lot of different ways. And so we can kind of talk a little bit about that. But I also think the other side of that phrase, the giving a shit part, I think. Where I was going with it or what I was thinking about is like the act like that act of like how you show that you care. What ways are you giving a shit about that person? Is that, that's kind of where my mind was going.

[00:25:44] Joel: Okay. I like that. Like, how are, how are you going out of your way to show that you give a shit?

[00:25:53] Bagel: So it's funny that you added that phrase out of your way so that that would be one way to look at things. Right.  Maybe we take that off for a second and say, what does caring about someone look like versus what is going out of your way to care for somebody look like?

[00:26:11] So I'm a self proclaimed coffee snob and a lot of my friends would, would make fun of me for even saying those word.  But, I don't nerd out about too, too many things, but coffee is definitely one of them.

[00:26:24] More so just in the appreciation and then taste of it and all that kind of thing. And I have a buddy here who I've gotten to know, in Charlotte and  as we've gotten to know each other a bit, he's kind of like grown an interest a little bit in trying good coffee. And I've kind of brought him to a couple of coffee shops and things like that.

[00:26:42] So it's his birthday this week. And he actually was asking me about coffee roasting like a week ago, and then all of a sudden I was like, wait a second. Like I care about him  a lot and I actually really think this is a perfect opportunity to get him the first thing that I started roasting coffee on, which was a hot air popcorn popper. That's very inexpensive, but it's just a little thing that I was like, wait, instead of just telling him what website to go to,  I am not spending as much money as normal right now, like most people probably are. And I'm very lucky that I am still employed, so I can afford this. I'm going to get him this thing and some green unroasted coffee beans and send him a little birthday gift.

[00:27:26] And it was just one example. I mean, obviously not trying to tout or gloat or anything, but it's just like something that mattered to me because obviously we have a shared interest and I think it's a cool way to kind of like keep our friendship going and  build upon it.

[00:27:42] Joel: Yeah, absolutely. And you did, you did remind me of something. You and I, like you were saying like, we're best friends and you and I don't speak that often. And I think that's, but I think that's a, that's a, that's a Testament to friendship.

[00:28:02] In a way. And I just wanted, so whenever, and this is true, I don't, I don't think I've ever said this to you. But whenever my family, my mom or my dad or my sisters, like whenever anybody says to me, "We don't speak that often. You don't call me, blah, blah." My go to is, you know what? When's the last time I spoke to Bagel?

[00:28:28] Like actually, like spoke with Bagel was like three months ago. Two months ago. And they look at me like, "Oh, okay. I understand."

[00:28:35] So those little things and the way that I think communicating to me and showing it's those random, "Hey, I saw something that reminded me of you. Here it is. Hey, look at this. It reminded me of you." And once you send that, it's like, Hey, how are you doing? Blah, blah. 

[00:28:57] So my mother-in-law lives in Venezuela still, and I'm not going to get into the situation with Venezuela, but your listeners can go research a little bit. But she was in my house last year. And she saw the magic, and I swear I don't get paid to say this, but the magic of air fryers. If you don't have an air fryer.

[00:29:26] Oh, get one. Oh my God. So, so she saw that we were cooking absolutely everything in an air fryer. And she was just asking question and asking question after question after question about like, what can you do in an air fryer? And when she got to Venezuela there was an air fryer waiting for her. So, those are like little, what you're saying, those little things that you know are going to help somebody feel, I don't know, like cared for. You know, it's going to show that you care in a way. And it's not about, like you said, it's not about like the monetary thing. It's not like you spent a lot of money, but it's just showing there. I'll throw this one also in there because if I talk about my mother in law and don't talk about my mother I'll have some issues. 

[00:30:18] Bagel: Sandra, we love you. 

[00:30:20] Joel: So Passover was last week and my mom was really upset that she wasn't getting to spend Passover with anybody, any of the family, because they're quarantined. And right now it's just my grandma, her and Morris. So I sent her a, a cardboard cutout, like real life size of me and Val, so that she can put it  in the house and feel like we're there.

[00:30:49] And she called me crying and she was so happy. And like, those are like, you know, things that you show.  Like I fight a lot with my mom and I don't call her enough and I don't text her enough but she knows I love her. She, like, when you do those little things, you know, like you care.  WEven people that I have zero relationship with, all right.

[00:31:15] Zero relationship with, but there is a past that mattered.  We were talking about Blink 182 before. Every time that there's a new Blink 182 album or some news about Blink 182, you know who my first message is to? Adam.  I don't talk to him. Right? I don't talk to him at all, but I know that he, like our relationship was based on Blink 182 for a long time. And every time that there's something Blink 182, I know he cares and I care about the relationship that we once had. So I think those moments that you show you give a shit a little bit.

[00:32:06] Bagel: Yup. Yeah, that's, that is so interesting and intriguing to me because,  I can think of instances of friendships that I had that are in the past, and maybe it should stay there. It's like they're not, you know, they're not really part of my life anymore.

[00:32:24] And  I find myself asking that question sometimes, like, why, why am I not talking to that person where regularly or I even start to feel a little guilt? Like, should I be in more contact with this person? But more recently I sort of have squashed that because I know that it's a two way thing.

[00:32:40] And if, yeah, I mean, if, if you. A relationship takes both sides and it takes the effort on both sides. And if you feel like that one side is truly not participating, unless you feel strongly enough that you want that person included in your life and you want to make that effort to try to recoup it or whatever, maybe there's good reason for why that friendship no longer exists or you're no longer caring about that person.

[00:33:08]Joel: Maybe this is where it's a personal thing. I have issues letting go. I have a lot of problems letting go, but I understand with different people that it's not a relationship that was  is going to be sustained. But I care about what we had at the time and the memories, and I still care about those memories and I still think of them fondly.

[00:33:40]Val makes fun of me for, for the fact that I still have everybody on Facebook. And I, like I have because I genuinely remember things with individual people that I cared about. It doesn't mean we need to have a every day relationship, but I cared at one point and that's still inside me for, for better or worse .

[00:34:08] Bagel: Yeah. No, it's interesting. I mean, it almost sounds, it almost sounds like you're just honoring what you had. I mean, and I don't know if there's any self-serving reason why, cause I do it too. Why I might be holding on to those things or not. I'm probably over-analyzing, digging too deep, but I think there's the sense of honoring like that friendship.

[00:34:33] And it's almost like respecting it, you know? And I think it would be, maybe you and I might feel it'd be disrespectful to ignore that person just because you're not like proximity close to them anymore. It's like they still, they matter to you at one point. They should still matter as a human being in your life to some extent now.

[00:34:51] Joel: And even, I don't know, even if you had a falling out, even if you disagree on many, many things. And you don't, and you know that you shouldn't, that it's toxic to be friends with the other person. There's still something that brought you together on one point. And the fact that I'm, that I'm messaging you or, or reminding you of that thing that we had at one point doesn't mean that we need to rekindle our friendship.

[00:35:25] It's just, "Hey man, remember how much fun this was?" Whatever. You know, like, it's, I think that, I think it's a beautiful thing to pay tribute or honor those moments. Absolutely. 


[00:35:41]Bagel: I'm curious to know if this is something a lot of us do. Some of us are more prone to holding onto the past than others, for sure. Friendships and communication also evolve with age. Where do you fall in terms of honoring past relationships?   

[00:35:57] Joel: I have, there's someone that I, whatever, a cousin of mine that we really, we had a great relationship and then it kinda, you know, some things happened and we don't anymore.

[00:36:14] And I still, every once in a while I'll reach out with him and I was listening to this thing reminded me of blah, blah, blah. I'm not looking to have the same relationship with what we did. I was like, "Hey man, I love you. I still, like your blood." Like we opened this up with saying like, there's a lot of things thicker than blood, but like, I love you.

[00:36:40] I, you know, it's easy for me, I love very easily.

[00:36:46] You are a loving human. 

[00:36:48] So I love you. I don't need to have an everyday relationship with you. I don't need to have an ongoing relationship with you, but let's honor what we shared for a bit.

[00:36:58] Bagel: Yeah, I think that makes sense. Also are there other examples in your life where  you've gone out of your way to care for somebody or you gave a shit that was just more of a gesture than it was a gift, for example?

[00:37:13] Joel: Putting me on the spot here, man.

[00:37:16] Bagel: I know. 

[00:37:16] Joel: Dead air is good for radio, is that..

[00:37:19]Bagel: I'll just kind of share some thing that has been really important to me over the years. And, and I honestly, I feel like it's been lacking a little bit, especially right now. And that is, you know, almost too stubbornly over the course of most of my life, really since I left for college. Even though I didn't go too far from home originally from Jersey and went to Delaware, but now in North Carolina. So a little bit further from kind of my core in the Tristate area up North. Like it was always very important and still is incredibly important for me to make an effort to see my friends and family.

[00:37:55] And, for years. I mean, really up until I would say very, very recently, I made such a point to travel to see my various friends and very lucky that I have many and they're kind of all over, but clustered a lot in the East coast. Like I'd always made a point as much as possible to see as many people as I could.

[00:38:20] And in one sense, it was very fulfilling to like feel like I was doing this and it helped me feel like I had this connection with people and that connection was staying true and, and it was, I was strengthening that connection that I had with these friends that I cared about because I was making that effort.

[00:38:39] The downside is I exhausted myself. Constantly do. Every time I take a a road trip, for example, back home to Jersey, I'm seeing anywhere from 5 to 15 people in a week span or less. And it's like one meal with these people, the next meal with these people. And I know you do it too. And it's just like after like day three I am beat.

[00:39:04] I am like so done that I have nothing left in me. And that's usually the time when I'm at home with my parents. And I feel bad because I have like no energy to like just hang out with my family. So there's, there's like this, this repercussion to it that I feel often exhausted.

[00:39:22] And the other side of it too is. You know, I feel like maybe I've built a little bit of this expectation that I'm going to go see other people and that there's, it doesn't often feel like there's as much reciprocation, like people are coming to visit me. And I know that there's like a logistical component to it that like obviously when I go up North I get to see more people because they're clustered together, but at the same time it'd be nice if more people came down here where the weather's gorgeous.

[00:39:46] It's like 70 degrees right now.

[00:39:48] Joel: Absolutely. It's, it's a, it's exhausting. And we're both very much this way, and I think I have cut back on it a lot recently. Maybe it's because I am married now and it's a, you know, I have other priorities,  but you and I have always been very giving and it does get to feel a lot of times that it's not reciprocated.  I remember a conversation I had with my dad once where it's like, when is when is being good going to ever pay off? You know? Like when, when is doing all this stuff that feels good. You know, like you do it because like you care. And like that caring is genuine. Like I, I genuinely care and I, it feels good to do this, not because of that reciprocation, but at some point it just, it's like, where is it? Like, why, why am I giving so much? And you do exhaust yourself and you need care from other people to bring you back up.

[00:41:04] You know, it's to refuel you.


[00:41:07]Bagel: There's a concept I want to mention here, which is that we need to fill up our own cup before we can fill up those of others.  I think this reflects what Joel is saying here, that you need to refuel. While some people may feel refueled by giving unconditionally, I think most of us need to feel like a shit as being given about us by the same people we give a shit about.

[00:41:29]Joel: I don't know if he cares that we mentioned him, but our, one of our best friends, we had a great conversation where he saw that he wasn't doing that. And that he wasn't putting in as much effort. And I remember we had the conversations like,  when I was coming into Jersey at one point you told me you need me to pick you up at the airport, I'll be there.

[00:41:56] And I was like, Whoa, Whoa. And he, and we had the conversation and he showed that he, he knew that he needed to show that reciprocation from time to time. And I really appreciate that a lot of he's, he's done that often.

[00:42:14] Bagel: Yeah, that's great. I think it kind of goes into what I was thinking next  which is like,  what do you need to feel like someone gives a shit for you, you know about you? So the other way around.

[00:42:29] Joel: I feel like not much. I think, I think like today, especially today, it really it's just a reminder that you, I thought of you. You know what I mean? Like, I remember you exist and I don't know, like my life right now well like for everybody. But before this craziness, like my life was my wife, my dog, and trying to get pregnant for the past three years, that's been my life.

[00:42:59] So I really see, and I am like, people have kids, people have families, people have things. And like that becomes their Island, you know? So I really, at this stage in life and specially knowing that we all live so far away from each other or like just a text.  "Hey man, what's going on? Hope everything's good. I just watched this movie and reminded me of you." Like, that shows me that you care. I, one of my childhood best friends, which actually he called me yesterday.  And he literally calls me once a month just to talk. I 

[00:43:43] Bagel: Yeah, I was going to ask you.

[00:43:46] Joel: And I fucking hate it.

[00:43:47] And he knows it, he knows it, but every time I pick up the phone, we talked for like an hour and a half, and it feels like when we were kids that you had to call like the person's house and talk to the mom and, "Hey is  Bagel home?" Well, no cell phones already at that point, but  today, like in the world we live in and the stage of the life that we're in, that shows me enough.

[00:44:13] And if in right now with, the, the podcast. That we've had, like people are sending things to us, well, Val keeps asking for food. People keep sending stuff to us, like with rainbows, and it's really, really nice. And it shows that you're thinking about us  nothing. Huge, nothing big, but it's just a little little token and it's in a text message and like, "Hey, I'm here with you guys." And I, you know, I went through this too, and blah, blah, blah, and you know, whatever just showing that you care. But it doesn't need to be long. It doesn't need to be continuous. Because I think we all understand that people have lives and people have. Many things going on. 

[00:45:04] OverlayI think Joel's words here are so relatable. For many of us while we're busy with our lives and responsibilities. Even just a little effort can go such a long way to show someone you're thinking about them or that you care. It got me thinking, how can I do more of this in my everyday. 

[00:45:21] The next piece of the conversation is all about the trap of being glued to our phones or mobile devices or whatever device you're using.

[00:45:30] I found myself feeling uncomfortable admitting that I have done what we've all done, which is blatantly ignore a call as it's coming in. But is that the healthy thing to do?

[00:45:40] Yeah, I would agree with you. I think, it's funny cause I was just going to ask you, are you a phone person or not knowing full well what the answer is like most of us these days, we kind of see, we see the phone ring and we're like, ah, okay, I'll deal with that later. It's for better or for worse.

[00:45:57] And then you make up and you're like, Oh yeah, I missed the no dude. I was looking at the screen when you called and I was like, ah, fuck. I stopped playing the game that I was playing. I waited for the call to stop, you know, I just went back and then three days later it's like, Oh shit, I missed your call, dude. 

[00:46:18] Am 

[00:46:18] Bagel: Yeah, I was just going to say

[00:46:19] Joel: No? Am I the only one? 

[00:46:20] Bagel: Okay. No, I, I'm not ashamed to admit I've done it and you know, we can all make up the reasons why . And I definitely feel, I feel guilty of that sometimes. And the, and the truth is, you know, and here's how I feel about it.  There are times where you know, I don't feel like I need to be connected to my phone 24/7 anymore. There was, there was a time where I did, but I've, and this is just for my own self care. I have a lot of anxiety and so, and I do feel very often feel like I am responsible for other people and it's something I'm constantly working on.

[00:46:57] And what I've told myself is that just because someone calls me or text me. Does not mean that it is my responsibility to answer at that moment or to get back with them or to, or to solve anything for them at that moment. And again, this is just my own personal thing. But, for like another example is like Sundays, I, you know, over the last few years I've realized that I truly need a day of rest.

[00:47:21] Maybe it was written into the Bible for a reason. I don't know. And I'm not super religious, more spiritual, but I do really feel like that's important for me. I've realized that at the end of the week, I need Sundays to recover, to recharge, to recoup, to have my time for self care. And it's not that I'm sitting around doing absolutely nothing, but it's, I'm doing the stuff that helps me get grounded again.

[00:47:42] Sunday happens to be a day when lots of people feel like it's good to reconnect and and make phone calls and text each other.

[00:47:49] Joel: Yup. 

[00:47:50] But you're not, but it's, I think it's a very, it's a divide. People, you're not the only one that I know that uses Sundays as I'm not gonna use my phone. I tend to call people on Sundays. If I am going to call, it's probably going to be on a Sunday.

[00:48:08] And it's fair and it's funny that we're the opposite side of that, which is interesting. It's just, and everyone's different. I think for me, I need to know that I have that sanctuary, and it may not be that I'll never answer a call on a Sunday or that I won't ever call someone. But I need to know that I have that time for myself to get what I need so that I can feel better for that week ahead.

[00:48:29] Because you're more organized. It's about having your Virgo, right? You're, you need everything.

[00:48:37] Bagel: There's a bit of that. Yeah, there's a bit of that, and I think.  I inundate myself with responsibilities. I've got lots of different projects. 

[00:48:45] Joel: Inundate?

[00:48:46] Bagel: Yeah. You know, occasionally I'll throw a big word out there. Although I did terrible on my verbal SATs, so I don't even know why I try.

[00:48:53]But I tend to have a lot of different things going on. Lots of balls in the air. And sometimes too many. And so I do think, yeah, there's that part of me that needs to have that structured time to recharge. And I, and everybody needs that to some degree. It's just people might do it differently.

[00:49:08] And not everyone has a set day of the week to do it. But for me, that's what works.  To bring this back up to what we were talking about, it's just like this idea.  That I think there, there may have been in there maybe still as this fear that if I don't get back to a friend that has called or texted me that they're going to abandon the friendship.

[00:49:27] You know, I'm going to do like that's going to cause them to like think less of me or whatever it might be. And there's, I'm not saying it's rational, but there's probably this like underlying fear of that and I'm starting to like remind myself and be able to let that go. Like, no man, like if this dude has something he needs to talk about and it's that important, he can text me or leave me a message.

[00:49:51] And if it's that important, I'll get back to him when I can and I'll do the best I can. But I can let go of that feeling like I need to be there to solve that problem that day and feeling like it's my responsibility to be next to my phone and answer it as soon as it rings. And for me, that's helped a lot.

[00:50:08] And some people may be fine with answering the phone and picking it up or whatever, but I'm giving myself, you know, it's almost like I tell myself. Like, it's the old days where we've got cordless phones and there's a voice machine. It's like it can go to voicemail and I'll return it, or maybe I'm out and I'm not near the phone.

[00:50:24] Like that's almost how I train myself to think these days is that I'll get to it on my time. Not on their time.

[00:50:30] Yeah. I think it's the healthy thing to do now. Do you have trouble getting back to it though? Cause I kind of do sometimes. That's my thing. Like I do. This, I don't know, like what I mentioned before, like I'm playing a game and I get a call like we're not, if I'm playing to get on now. Now I'm playing games all day long, but like if I'm playing a game on my phone, it's because I needed a break and I don't want my break to be taken over by a random phone call.

[00:51:00] Even though I may love the person that's calling me like. It's like I had in my head that I was going to get my 15 minutes of call of duty and that I needed just a break.  There are people that do take it in more offense and there. And there are honestly, there are times that I do miss a call that I do miss a and that I don't see it, and I do miss a text message. So I think most people understand, but there might be those people that do get offended by it.

[00:51:35] Mom. 

[00:51:37] Everyone. Yeah. Expectations are important. And I think you know, your relationships with the people matter in, in what they expect of you. And for example, like, yeah, some people's parents might expect them to pick up the phone when they call or, or to call them right back. Whereas other relationships are different and it's not a big deal.

[00:51:56] If you go a week after, maybe you text a few times in between to like, let them know you're alive and that's enough. And so I think, you know, it shouldn't be. Overlooked that like the relationship probably matters there a bit too.

[00:52:09] Another theme that I'm sensing here from you and I, again, not to interject into it too much, but for me it's like connection. 

[00:52:18] Yeah. I think connection is the most important thing. I don't know, I think it's natural. You know what I mean? Like connecting with someone is the most natural thing you can do. It's it, it's unforced. I mean, I guess you can build a connection, but I feel  that like similarity in soul and just, I don't know, man. I think it's very unique and it's very random and natural to the soul, to, to, it's just subconscious, I think.

[00:53:10] Yeah. Getting spiritual with it. I like it. 

[00:53:13] Joel: Don't you? I mean, don't you agree that there's, there's just people that you just connect with like. By their aura, by you just locked. I was like, Oh, this guy's going to be my friend for a while. . 

[00:53:27] Bagel: No, the viewers can't listen. This can't see you, but I thought you were about to make out with this figurative person you just met and just the way that you're.

[00:53:35] Joel: I was here. Okay. Yeah. That

[00:53:37] Bagel: Yeah. Let me give you a smoochy smooch. No, I agree a hundred percent. there are times where you just feel that instant connection with somebody when you, when you meet them. And there are other times where things build.

[00:53:49] And I think there's instances, at least personally in my life of both, where those become really good friends. So I don't think it necessarily has to be right off the bat or one way or the other. But I do think that if you're starting to feel like you've given that you've given a friendship or a connection, a few tries, and you're not feeling anything like there's probably a reason for that.

[00:54:10] Right. And I think it's totally fine to just admit, like maybe there's not an organic relationship or an organic connection there. And that's perfectly fine. And you can choose how you want to. Continue or discontinue that relationship, but, but I agree. I think, you know, there's, there's lots of studies out there that point to,  strong relationships being connected to happiness and fulfillment in one's life and sort of being, one of the answers.

[00:54:35] So you know, how to, how to live the most fulfilling and meaningful life out there. And our listeners can assert their own opinions around that. I'd love to hear what people think.

[00:54:46] Joel: Let me throw it. Let me throw this in there. Since we're talking specifically about connection and it doesn't necessarily. Have to be a positive connection. Okay, so I was thinking it's, it's like wrestling, you know, connection is just like, if you, if it's good, then it's good. But  if it's bad, you still have a connection like you don't like this person for a reason.

[00:55:11] You're pulled in. Exactly. Like there's something that like hating something or someone is, it's as strong as loving someone.  lLike, I have a very strong connection with our precedent right now. You know what I mean? Like, it's like there's, there's, it makes you feel something inside that it could be good or bad. You know, and it can go up and down.

[00:55:41]Bagel: No, I totally know what you're saying there. It's like, it's almost like when there's no feeling, you know, or no connection. That's, that's almost the, yeah, that's the worst when the, when there's no feeling about how you feel about someone else. But I would say for the most part, anyone we have any legitimate, you know, conversation with or interaction with, we typically form an opinion of them as human beings.

[00:56:05] We, we judge very quickly, and that's just part of our nature.  But yeah, you're right. I think you can either start to sense whether you like or dislike someone's characteristics pretty quickly. Of course. Hopefully most of us allow some time to like really, truly get to know them and aren't judging a book by its cover.

[00:56:21] But yeah, I would say  there's fewer instances where we don't have a feeling about someone where it's just like, you know, no pulse in terms of our  emotional response. 

[00:56:31] Joel: Yeah,

[00:56:31] we have a, we have a friend that we were very close friends and then we stopped being friends and then we became very close friends again and there was not a point in that whole, in that whole thing. Okay. Before we stopped being friends, I had my, you know exactly what I'm talking about

[00:56:31] now. 

[00:56:31] Bagel: trying to figure it out. You talking about Lenny.

[00:56:31] Joel: No, no. We stopped being friends with Lenny.

[00:56:31] Bagel: yeah. before, before you met him.

[00:56:31] Joel: Oh yeah, whatever. If you can bleep it out. But I'm talking about bread. even before, even before we stopped being friends with them for a little bit, I had my things, you know, my, my Boston riff with him. and, you know, then it became, after he came back to the group, he worked very hard

[00:56:31] Bagel: I'm getting, I'm getting some feedback from whatever you're, you're bouncing on your table. Sorry.

[00:56:31] Joel: sorry. I was doing the S the, the, then he came back on the table. so when he came back, he tried very hard, and like now we're, I feel like I'm closer to him than ever, and he's, you know, closer to the group then than ever. But. Through that whole hiatus of friendship, and even when we wanted to kill each other in Boston, there was always a connection with him.

[00:56:31] You know, like we cared. It wasn't like, Oh yeah, I remember Brad, whatever. No, no, no, no. Like we always cared because we had, he was a person that we connected with, or maybe I'm just talking for myself. Let me know. I'll put words in other people's. W w like I connected with him and it was never like a lack of connection.

[00:56:31] Bagel: he's still mattered to you

[00:56:31] Joel: Exactly. I still gave a shit.

[00:56:31] Bagel: That's right. Look at that coming full circle. I like it. Yeah. I feel like there, it's funny, for a while I kind of jokingly used to say this like when I was in high school and college, that a lot of people that I, a lot of people that ended up becoming my really good friends, I kind of hated when I first met them. 

[00:56:46]I don't, I don't know if that's quite the case with you. I don't think I ever hated you. 

[00:56:49] Joel:

[00:56:49] just 

[00:56:49] thought 

[00:56:49] that was weird.

[00:56:52] Bagel: But there was, there's, and again, this is my personal experience, but I think there's that sort of judgment thing happens. Like the snapshot you get of somebody. I think there are a lot of people that I ended up becoming really close with where there was something about them that rubbed me the wrong way at first. O r they did something very different from how I go about doing things, but I allowed myself the opportunity to get to know them a bit more and like probably saw that they had good intentions. And for me, that's a high value. And so  that started to allow me to like become closer with them and get to know them more and develop a friendship.

[00:57:28] And yeah, I don't know. It's just interesting.

[00:57:30] Joel: It's like a TV show, man. There's some TV shows that you like. Watch the first episode. You're like, eh, I'm not going to keep going, and there's some TV shows you're like, I'm going to give it until the third episode, and if I like it, I want to keep going. Well, there's some that you don't, you don't even want to make it to that third episode.

[00:57:47] Bagel: Yeah. And you got to trust your instincts to some degree, right? Like there may be some that sneak through that you get, that you gave up on after one episode. That could have been something.

[00:57:59] And You may have ended up enjoying, and there's also some that maybe you watched too many episodes and just didn't know when to quit.

[00:58:09] Joel: And do you think it's great? And then everybody's like, dude, why are you watching that? It's like, cause it's great. No, it's not. No, it's stopped watching it.

[00:58:16] Bagel: Okay. Why are you wasting your time?

[00:58:20]That's great. any, anything else about. This topic that you had thought about before, before coming on today that you wanted to make sure you shared

[00:58:20] Joel: not really. Not really. I kinda, I'm sorry. I

[00:58:20] just,K  w w came pretty open for just like a conversation. I didn't really prepare much. I just wanted to, to come along for the ride. but what, I don't know, I'm trying to think how I can, how I can wrap this up in my head.

[00:58:20] Bagel: I mean, another, another thing that was the second to last thing I was going to ask you, so we can just go to the last thing, which may be a little easier, which is

[00:58:20] Joel: I don't think, I don't think I have fully answered a question directly this whole time. I'm going to run for some kind of office.

[00:58:20] Bagel: Yeah. I didn't bring you on to answer questions in folds. Well, let's just be honest. I brought you on to have a very open dynamic and fun-filled conversation. So it's been everything I dreamed of. So the last thing to sort of wrap it up, and if you do have anything else, of course, feel free to share. But like what would be one tip that you would have for others who are trying to navigate this topic. And I know the topic is pretty broad, but let's just say if, if there was someone out there who was trying to figure out like what it meant to give a shit about others, or maybe they were trying to figure out like what do they need  to feel like they're a shit is being given about them.

[00:59:01] This is very complex language now , what tip would you have for them to help them discover what that, what that means for them or what that might look like for them?

[00:59:12] Joel: I think it's always good to do more than expect more. I think you have more control and you can be happier with if you initiate something. And I think if that's the mentality that we all have, I think everybody would be initiating something and it would just be paid forward. So I guess that would be like, don't wait for someone else to show they care.

[00:59:42] Like, just show you care until you realize that they don't give a shit about you. You know, like, I would like, don't be afraid to be. The one who initiates the love, or who opens up, or who asks for a hug, or gives a hug, you know, like it's, I dunno, like it's. 

[01:00:09]Be vulnerable.

[01:00:10] Bagel: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like it's, it's better to give than to receive is kind of the mantra and, and also like leading by example. I think I would agree. I sometimes, it also just makes me think that sometimes pride gets in the way. And not trying to call out any specific relationships out there but I think there are instances where you feel like you are giving more. But you know that you know in the back of your mind that person cares about you, but perhaps they're not showing it in the way that you need. I think there's many ways to handle that, but I think  still maintaining your value of showing them that you care is still important and if it needs to be, have a upfront and authentic conversation with that person to say, Hey. I do care about you and you know what? I know you care about me too, but haven't really been feeling like it lately.

[01:01:06] You know what I mean? I mean, approach that the way you feel you think is right for you, but it can just be so, it can be so beneficial to clear the air, or at least approach the conversation. And you often, I think you'd be surprised with how that person, if they do truly care about you, how well they're going to respond to that. And maybe they've been feeling similarly, and there's something that they need to clear with you.

[01:01:30] Joel: And sometimes you end up not agreeing, but you just you clear the air and you can move on. I love deep conversations and I love clearing things. And when I got drunk back in the day, my goto phrase was, we need to talk and I would pull people to the side and just have like serious conversations with them.

[01:01:58] And yeah, I think it helps align. Whether it's something stupid or something that actually matters. Just if there's something going on that is palpable, the best thing you can do is talk about it. Unless you have already talked about it and there's no moving forward or that is something too deep. That cause there are there's things you just can't get over. Like  racism comes into my head. Like if you realize that someone was a racist person, I mean, you may not want to give them a second chance no matter what.

[01:02:40] Bagel: Yeah.  If there's some inherent bias or something like that. Sure. I can understand like not wanting to associate with that person anymore.

[01:02:49]Edited to this point 5/22/20

[01:02:49]Joel: But if you, I feel that if you are, to wrap it up  on an up note, if you are the one who initiate the kindness, I think that you will find that more people will reciprocate and more you will find that there's more good. It's just hard to be the one who initiates it. So that's, I think everybody listening to this should, you know, go do something nice for somebody.

[01:03:21] Bagel: There you go. That's, that's our tie it up with a bow, tip, lesson and Sage advice from, from today's guest, Joel. So, before I officially wrap it up, and thank you, Joel. Do you want to let the listeners out there know how they can, engage with you, contact you, follow what you're working on?

[01:03:39] Joel: Yeah. So the podcast, first of all, it's like you said, You, Me and the Embryologist, Make Three. You can find those anywhere on where you listen to your favorite podcasts, and I'm on Instagram with a terrible Instagram name with is, J O. Dot. E L underscore, not underscore Joel. So Joe, not Joe, I need to change that.

[01:04:06] Bagel: Bye. By the way,  I really wanted to introduce Joel today as Joel, not Joel, and I didn't want to be rude, but since you brought up your Instagram name, I think I could make the joke.

[01:04:16] Joel: You can. Absolutely. And I, like I said before, it would be weird for you to call me. You know what?  That goes to one of the things that. I'm now being honest to myself about when I first moved to the States, I wanted to assimilate. I wanted to not stand out. So my, I was okay with people calling me the Americanized version of my name, and I always, I've always hated the Americanized version of my name.

[01:04:48]But I was like. No, no, it's, it's, I got used to it, but now that I'm being, like, when I moved well to Miami, which is Latin America, and then to LA, which is central America. I became more honest and more open about, no, please. My name's Joelle, and when people call me Joel, and I was like, I am not embarrassed at this point to say. that's main section. Actually, I hate to be this guy, but it's actually Joelle and people are okay with it.

[01:05:22] Most people are okay with 

[01:05:24] Bagel: it.

[01:05:25] Well, you're owning it and you're, you're being authentic to yourself, which is imoprtant.

[01:05:28] Joel: Exactly. That's what it's about. Being authentic to who I feel like inside.

[01:05:33] Bagel: Yeah. 

[01:05:34] Joel: All right man, thanks so much for having me here.

[01:05:37] Bagel: Of course. Thanks so much, Joel, for, for being on the show and sharing your, your wisdom and your, your authenticity. And please go and check out, Joel and Bell's podcast, on any platform that it's out there on. And, we love you and we hope, hope to talk to you again soon.

[01:05:52] Joel: I love you, man. Let's talk. Let's talk more often. I'll, let's call each other more often. 

[01:05:57] Okay? 

[01:05:58] Bagel: We will ignore each other's calls more often. That sounds like a great plan.

[01:06:03] Joel: I love you, dude. 


[01:06:05]  Bagel: I hope you enjoyed getting to listen to Joel and his authentic stories about caring and giving a shit.

[01:06:16]If you like what you heard, please hit subscribe in your podcast app so you get notified about all new episodes of the Live Your Values podcast with me, "Bagel." 

[01:06:24] Special thanks to Emma Peck for logo design, Danielle Gelber for marketing strategy, and my team at Free Your Time Virtual Assistants for operations support. Until next time.... 

[01:06:35]Get out there and LYV!

Guest Welcome
Joel's Top Values
Stigma around IVF
The Ripple Effect of Vulnerability
Openness to Therapy
The Unpopular Opinion about Family
Giving and Receiving Care
Caring vs. Giving a Sh*t
What does Friendship Look Like?
Small Things, Big Impact
Do Past Relationships Still Hold Value?
Gestures vs. Gifts
Does Being Good Ever Pay Off?
How Can a Shit Be Given About You?
The Trap of Always Being Accessible
Does the Fear Control You or Vice Versa?
Good Intentions
Wrap-up & Takeaways